Super Vee Rules Coming Soon

[chuckerf14]

By 1700, do you mean 1776cc? (69mmx90.5mm?) Or, are you talking about 88mm cylinders (1679cc)?

I need to start building my race engine. ?

[dmar836]

I do too but planned to keep to the original 1600cc theme. I'll stay with that as long as I'm handicapped against bigger displacements. Otherwise it opens up many options.
Dave

[Supervee]

Here's where I need some assistance from the engine guys….All these years of building airplanes, and I have always been soft on the engines….When I state that the 'FV' devision will use the 1600, or 1700, what I mean is, the closest to an 1834 c.c. that does not require the case holes to be enlarged….Maybe we need to change the wording. I was told that at 1834 or above, the case holes get machined…. I want , for historic and traditional reasons, to have the 'small' division, or category, to use the original FV rules…no case boring. I am not certain as to what point in jug size the case gets bored…..Any help would be appreciated!!….

[chuckerf14]

Okay.  Stock crank with slip-in 88mm cylinders will give you 1679cc.  That must be what they were calling a 1700.

[Supervee]

Yes!… I also remember that the "1600" engine was actually '15 something', like 1589, or thereabouts...

[Supervee]

When defining the engine size specs, I am going to have to play with the wording so there is no grey area, or different way to interpret what I write…
Maybe the wording should be as follows:
'FV' category,……..Under 1800 c.c., with no case boring., normally aspirated

'Sport' category……1800 c.c. up to and including 2180 c.c., normally aspirated

'Unlimited' category…..Any c.c……turbo allowed, fuel injection allowed…

That's the basic division of the engines…Notes in the rules now call for direct drive, props fixed pitch in flight, all VW based engines with 'VW' parts, meaning, mexican or brazilian parts stamped 'VW' are o.k.
When Jack gets my editing done, I will send these out to you guys who are active, and we can tweak from there….I want this to be fun and happy for all…
IDEAS ?

[chuckerf14]

Trying to keep engine builders in a box is like herding cats.

I would suggest that the FV class specify "No modifications to the case intended to increase bore or stroke."  That allows full-flow oil modifications without allowing someone to monkey with other things that add more power.  If we don't limit the stroke, I could see someone increasing the stroke to 74mm and using the 88mm slip-in cylinders.  That would take them right to the 1800cc limit.  I am assuming that the intent in this class is to stay as close to the basic VW engine as possible and stroker cranks don't really fall in the spirit of this class.  If we simply limit the displacement to 1679 (what you get with 88mm cylinders and stock stroke) then someone is going to try a stroker crank and smaller cylinders to get more torque.  Another option is to simply specify a "maximum 69mm stroke and 88mm bore" directly in the specifications.

In the SV class, the 2180cc limitation will exclude the new Revmaster 2300.  However it does cover most available bottom ends:

78mm strokers would be limited to 94mm cylinders with a maximum displacement of 2165cc.
82mm strokers would be limited to 92mm cylinders with a maximum displacement of 2180cc.
84mm strokers would be limited to 90.5mm cylinders with a maximum displacement of 2161cc.

If someone wants to run the R2300 and not be in the Unlimited class, they just need to run smaller cylinders and pistons (90.5mm). They can use a sleeve at the case end but they would need a different set of heads.  The total cost in parts would be under $1500 to downsize into this class.  If we go above 2180cc then (to stay competitive) the 78mm engines would need to stroke their engines further and everyone would need 94mm cylinders.  2180cc sounds like the best compromise.  It allows everyone to get close to the maximum displacement without having to split their cases.

Just my $.02,
Chucker

[Supervee]

Chucker, Wow…Could get complicated….For the first couple demonstrations, I admit that pretty much anything a guy brings out to the event is going to get timed. When prize money and higher stakes in the event get to be the norm, more tied down enforcement will be needed. I want to start out simple, but realize you won't please everybody…I am trying to entice all the available people with a variety of VW based engines, to get involved. Thats why I am offering four distinct divisions of the Supervee class…
The 'sport' division will for sure be the most popular, and the most plentiful with airplanes. When closed course pylon racing happens, we will probably need just one engine size racing in that division. Up until that happens, we can fit our airplane into 'FV', 'Sport,' ' Unlimited' and' Sonerai 2'….that initially ought to satisfy everybody…You can select which division you want to compete in, then build the engine accordingly….Your slick canopy may really boost you in the Sonerai 2 division. And remember, there may be a sonerai 2 tri gear in the competitions, will be interesting to see how much slower the tri gears are….

[chuckerf14]

Ed,

Like I said, it can be like herding cats.

I fully support your effort to keep it simple.  Drawing the line on displacement and aspiration should be good for the recreational racing.  When you put pylons and cash in the picture, people will push the limits.  We can cross that road when we come to it.

The more detailed the contract, the more opportunity for manipulation.  Keeping it simple will help.  Let people wander as they will within clear boundaries and no one can cry "foul."

I am not trying to complicate the picture...just show you how easily it can be done.  When there is prize money on the line we will see it all.

All the best,

Chucker

[Supervee]

YES…..We will cross that road when we get to it…..For now, simple, inexpensive, and lenient to a certain extent… I want to have video's of us doing our simple events. The sights and sounds of a half dozen VW's charging back from an 'Outback' competition will be exciting, and will surely find its way to the electronic medium like Youtube….Remember, the future ability to have closed course pylon racing is dependent on us crawling first, and doing what's necessary to show the FAA, NAA, and the insurance people that we can, and are , conducting ourselves in a respectable manner.
Initially I am not going to care if a guy is racing a 1700 against a 1600, or a 2180 for that matter….
I hope this summer at Osh, towards the end of the forum, if enough members are in attendance, that we can have some sort of organizational meeting, and perhaps get rolling as a legit Organization, rather than just a little club of sorts…..

[mhflyit]

'Single seat' 2's could race with 1's (tail end Charlie's probably) until enough 2's justify a separate division? Aha - I've now read all 4 pages...I like the out and back idea for categories and for the 2's; maybe a handicap system if not enough 2's are present. My 9 year old Son just watched the promotional youtube clip - loved it. The close in action makes it very crowd friendly.
Ed - thank you for the news letter. What a neat surprise to receive it in the mail. Here's my progress - registration - check, condition inspection - check, original airworthiness applies - check, insurance - check. First flight when the weather cooperates...believe it or not and I'm in SoCal.

[Supervee]

Matt, Good to hear from you. Correct, when we have four to six Sonerai 2's at a site, they can run all their own competitions. But as we crawl along in building ourselves, we will have to do some combining. It been Done Before..In the early days of FV, Butch Mankovech's (sp) father had a Sonerai 2 'Green Hornet' that raced with the VEES, around pylons!…And at Columbus , we had a Vee race that Dennis Beebe raced his S2 #11 in….
The 'Outback' competition will automatically be handicapped. To do the competition, each Racer will take off alone and do a qualifying, timed run. After all aircraft have done this, and the speeds are tallied, the startup , with airplanes in a group, will commence with the slowest qualifier first, and in order of qualifying speed…Probably a 10 second delay between releasing aircraft for the start…A time that is safe to make sure the previous aircraft got off and onto the course.
Good luck with your test flights!

[Supervee]

Matt, By the way, I still have you listed as race #19….

[mhflyit]

Thx Ed - it's on the fuse in big bright letters!

[billjacobs386]

Oct 20, 2015 8:41:45 GMT -6 Supervee said:

Chucker, Thanks for your interest…The Sonerai 2 list is small, but will grow I am sure, once we actually have a competition with sonerai 1's….You Tube will help us I am sure…At our first event, almost everybody attending will have a camera in their phone…..Ed

Count me in!
Bill